wintercompanion | Meta Month of March: Ep Discussion: The Stolen Earth/Journey's End

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Meta Month of March: Ep Discussion: The Stolen Earth/Journey's End

We're on the last two episodes of our Doctor/Jack rewatch, and here is Torchwood. Here is Team Torchwood on Doctor Who. Here is the leader of Torchwood Three, being character-assassinated on Doctor Who.

Well, all right, that's a bit harsh, isn't it? Still, consider: There's nothing I can do. I'm sorry - we're dead. Before the first Dalek has even arrived on Earth, Jack's already given up. He's also convinced Martha is dead as soon as she uses Project Indigo, and when there's an incoming transmission he doesn't even want to listen: The whole world's crying out. Just leave it.

What's happened to our hero? When did he become a fatalist? You tell me, because this isn't the Jack I know. He just throws in the towel until the Doctor turns up after all.

Granted, Sarah Jane is suffering from the same sudden passivity. And Harriet Jones's philosophy has become paradoxical: I stand by my actions to this day because I knew that one day the Earth would be in danger and the Doctor would fail to appear - but unlike before, now what she does isn't look for a Doctor-less solution, but pins everything on getting the Doctor there.

And then the Doctor does turn up, and Jack shouts, Where the hell have you been? As if he expected him. Granted, this is before Children of Earth, but really, after Owen, after Tosh? As if it was the Doctor's job to save the Earth, not Jack's own (self-appointed) task.

Still, once the Doctor's in the picture, Jack immediately becomes Jack again, regaining his energy, springing into action. And action it is, for the most part, during these two episodes - there's not much by way of meaningful character interaction between Jack and the Doctor.

The Doctor does appear to have mellowed quite a bit on Torchwood, though - far from the contemptuous, accusing tone he used the last time this came up, he sounds quite fond when he says, That must be Torchwood. The Doctor and Jack seem to have resolved their issues; there's no noticeable conflict left between them. They work together during the crisis, smoothly as ever, and when it's all done with, Jack walks out of the TARDIS without looking back. He's got his own life, his own people to go back to, and this time there's not even a question about it any more. (He's with Martha and Mickey at the end, but his relationship with Ianto and Gwen is established early on. I love that bit where Jack hears the Daleks and just pulls Ianto and Gwen close and kisses both their heads. And unlike last time, he didn't just run towards the Doctor: I'll come back. I'm coming back, he promises, not knowing that Daleks are already converging on the Hub.

What do you think? A few points to conider:

There's nothing I can do. I'm sorry - we're dead. What do you think about this? I have a bit of a love-hate relationship with these two sentences - they establish Jack as a hero in his own right ("nothing I can do", not "nothing we can do" - Jack's the one expected to save the day for Torchwood) and undermine him at the same time, having him give up without even trying, as if Daleks had never been defeated before.

And who's he? - Captain Jack. Don't - just don't. Now the Doctor's stopping Donna rather than Jack from flirting! In fact, there is a distinctive lack of Jack flirting in these episodes. He doesn't even hug Donna when she asks! What do you think is going on there?

He's dying, and you know what happens next. Jack of course knows about regeneration, but the way he acts here makes it sound as if he'd seen a regeneration happen already. Do you think he has? Or has he just heard stories?

Once again we get Doctor/Jack/Rose confronting the Daleks, with a nice call-back to the last time they did this, even. But there's no real reunion at all between Jack and Rose, and when Jack gets himself killed in order to escape (complete with secret wink at the Doctor) she clearly doesn't know what's happened to him. Do you think they ever told her, before the Doctor shipped her off back to the parallel world with her consolation prize?

How much of a point does Davros have about the Doctor's hypocrisy, fashioning people into weapons while complaining about guns? Much like RTD, maybe, conveniently disposing the Daleks while not allowing his hero to take responsibility for it, instead displacing it onto his double. - Still, one thing the final episode does well, in my opinion, is show the the difference between the Doctor who could blow up all Daleks, and the one who couldn't. The difference between the man who ended the Time War and the man who'd try to save even Davros.

Who else is getting annoyed at the Doctor constantly disabling Jack's vortex manipulator? Especially since it's only the teleport this time, not even time travel. Considering how much alien and future-tech is cluttered all over the planet, considering UNIT reverse-engineered a teleport by themselves - WTF is going on in the Doctor's brain? Is there any explanation for this short of "the writers didn't want Jack to have a working vortex manipulator on Torchwood"?

Three Doctors. - I can't tell you what I'm thinking right now. - Tell me honestly, now, who wasn't thinking that? :D

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There's nothing I can do. I'm sorry - we're dead. What do you think about this? - NOTHING but hate for this line!! It makes sense from Jack's perspective because the last time he saw the Daleks was Satellite Five. However, he clearly knows they CAN be defeated - because they were defeated on Satellite Five, as well as at Canary Wharf. It's just an overly dramatic line and I hate it.

And who's he? - Captain Jack. Don't - just don't. What do you think is going on there? - It's been pointed out to me before - and this is SO TRUE canonically - that Jack really tends to gravitate towards partners who are more reserved, and not really showy/don't put themselves ~out there~ sexually. (Which is one reason I don't think Jack would ever go for River - but I digress). Donna definitely puts herself out there - which is one reason I love her!! But it always made sense to me that Ten would be like "egads Donna, not him lol", because he'd know that Donna would be interested in a handsome man -- and conversely, he'd probably have realized that Donna wasn't Jack's type and therefore had little to worry about as far as he was concerned.

Do you think they ever told her, before the Doctor shipped her off back to the parallel world with her consolation prize? - I take issue with "consolation prize". That's not very nice, OP =/ They made it very clear in the interviews and commentary - and even in Donna's line "don't you see what he's trying to give you?!?" that the virtually-immortal Ten knew he could never be a true romantic partner to Rose in the way he felt she deserved, and therefore he gave her the human version of himself so that she would have a life with someone who wasn't so scared and emotionally pushing her away all the time, because their lifespans would be roughly equal now. It both an act of love on Ten's part, as well as an act of selfishness, in that he would not have to see the woman he loved grow old and die.

Edited 2012-03-31 23:28 (UTC)

It's just an overly dramatic line and I hate it.

Yeah. *sighs*

Good point about Jack going for partners less outgoing than himself, but then again, there's also Captain John, so I'm not sure that's always the case, so I'm not entirely sure on that.

I take issue with "consolation prize". That's not very nice, OP =/

Sorry, I know how it was meant, and I agree about the act of love and selfishness - that's a great way to put it, actually. But whenever I watch the episode, what it feels to me is RTD is trying to have his cake and eat it too.

To be honest, projecting a reassuring attitude in the face of danger has never been Jack's forte. He trucks through regardless, but his episodes are sprinkled with dialog that seems to signify losing hope, even if he hasn't truly stopped working on solutions. He's the first to throw up his hands in "The Doctor Dances"--I've got a banana, and in a pinch you could put up some shelves. Well, the assets conversation went in a flash, didn't it? Then he apparently remembers the existence of his teleport and saves them all. In "Boom Town," his response to Margaret teleporting away is That's cheating, now we'll never find her! And of course, it's impossible to identify the moment in which he gives up on surviving "Parting of the Ways," but he certainly seems to have already come to terms with his own death by the time he receives news that the Delta wave will be unrefined. So I don't have much problem with Jack indulging in a moment of pessimism before someone else rallies him. No, what bothers me about this line is the second sentence: "We're dead." As if he's just as dead as Gwen and Ianto. Somebody just got lazy there.

You're right about the attitude, but he's never been one to just sit down and wait for doom to arrive. That really strikes me as out of character.

But excellent point about "We're dead" - that really makes little sense!

There's nothing I can do. I'm sorry - we're dead.
Yeah, I'm pretty much with you, but... Let's not forget that the earth was somehow moved and there are now 26 planets hanging in the sky. This is clearly so far out of TW's ability to fix that the only thing they can really do is try to figure out what happened and hope for the best. When it turns out that the Daleks caused it, well... I don't like it, but I won't be as hard on Jack as I would be if the Daleks just showed up without the whole stolen earth scenario.

How much of a point does Davros have about the Doctor's hypocrisy
That mostly just annoyed me, esp that the Doctor seemed so taken in by it all. To start with, Jack certainly wasn't fashioned into a weapon by the Doctor. Jack's always been a soldier, and if anything, the Doctor reins him in. I'm also not sure if Sarah Jane knew what the warp star was, or had any idea what to do with it til Jack showed up. Again, it was the soldier who rigged the explosion, which is entirely in keeping with what we know of Jack, with NO help from the Doctor. I took Sarah Jane's stance as self sacrifice, willing to give her life to save the planet. And Martha... my take on her was that she was running a bluff. She certainly didn't just follow her orders like a good little soldier - instead she defied those orders and turned to the Doctor.

Who else is getting annoyed at the Doctor constantly disabling Jack's vortex manipulator?
Oh god yes. I do think it's the writer's being unwilling to leave Jack with a functional teleport. (Hm... what would that have done to COE?) One thing that bothers me though, is that Jack fixed whatever the Doctor did last time. He just lacked the info he got from Martha. So why can't he fix it again? That was partly my take on why he wasn't terribly fussed about it, but of course, we know it didn't happen.

Three Doctors
*grin* Although, being realistic, I never saw much chemistry btwn Jack and Ten, on Ten's part, and Jack didn't seem much interested in Donna. Not that he wouldn't enthusiastically go for it, if it was on offer.

I don't like it, but I won't be as hard on Jack as I would be if the Daleks just showed up without the whole stolen earth scenario.

I just - even if he utterly believes that they're doomed and there's nothing that can be done, I would never in a million years see Jack as someone sitting down and passively waiting for the Daleks to arrive. Some utterly pointless and futile grand final gesture, yes. Sitting down moping, no.

So why can't he fix it again?

This! The stupid thing always gets fixed anyway when it happens to be necessary for the plot. So why not let it work in the first place? If you have a situation where it'd really get in the way, you can easily put it out of commisssion somehow. (And in CoE he lost it during the explosion of the Hub - that would have worked just fine if it was functional too. Including Gwen finding it again later.)

I do see chemistry between Ten and Jack, but regardless, I'd like to see a Ten/Ten2/Donna/Jack foursome just for the comedy value. *g*

Um... giving Jasmine to the fairies (not that I think he was wrong about that), and sitting with John while he committed suicide come to mind.

In general, I think you're right, but I also think that Jack does have it in him to temporarily give up if he just can't come up with any form of action that makes sense. Doesn't mean he won't turn on a dime if he thinks of something, or the situation changes.

And in CoE he lost it during the explosion of the Hub
Oops... That's because, in my head I keep yelling at him to give it to Ianto when he knows he's about to blow up.

I do see chemistry between Ten and Jack
I see it much more in fanfic than on the screen. Lets hear it for fic :)

Who else is getting annoyed at the Doctor constantly disabling Jack's vortex manipulator?

Urgh, yes! It's patronising beyond belief!

Especially since it's only the teleport this time, not even time travel. Considering how much alien and future-tech is cluttered all over the planet, considering UNIT reverse-engineered a teleport by themselves - WTF is going on in the Doctor's brain? Is there any explanation for this short of "the writers didn't want Jack to have a working vortex manipulator on Torchwood"?

My take would be that the doctor doesn't want Jack following him around across the galaxy like a lovesick puppy. ;) Additionally, we know Jack makes the doctor uneasy for being able to distort the time-space continuum, or somesuch, and having that potential confined to just Earth might be -- to him -- a form of damage control.

My take would be that the doctor doesn't want Jack following him around across the galaxy like a lovesick puppy. ;)

Hee, cute! Although I rather doubt the Doctor seriously thinks Jack would. Last time round he even offered Jack to travel with him again, and Jack turned him down. The whole "fixed point" thing, though, that's probably the only in-universe explanation I can just about buy. *sighs*

I always have very split feelings when it comes to this. There are fun moments and, of course, more screen time for my favourite characters is a plus, but the writing feels rather self indulgent at times and with so many characters it's always a balancing act to give all of them the attention they deserve and keep them in character along the way. With RTD he is also bringing the three series he had been writing at the time together and that must have been fun for him, but like I alread said, it also leads to a slight feel of self indulgence in the writing.

There is also a lack of interaction between Rose and Jack and I had hoped for that to happen. After all she is the one that made him immortal by accident and now they are both Torchwood in their own worlds. I had hoped for them to realize that they had been forced to take a similar paths, fighting the Doctor's fight without the Doctor.

There's nothing I can do. I'm sorry - we're dead. I always get annoyed at this without fail. Maybe Jack has some left over trauma from being killed by Daleks before he wakes up immortal? I try to tell myself this is more about the fact that he sees no way to protect Ianto and Gwen and not about him giving up.

How much of a point does Davros have about the Doctor's hypocrisy, fashioning people into weapons while complaining about guns? Much like RTD, maybe, conveniently disposing the Daleks while not allowing his hero to take responsibility for it, instead displacing it onto his double.

I do think the Doctor makes unfortunate choices at every turn and has always done so - at least from time to time. But then his companions make their own choices, too, so what becomes of them is not the Doctor fashioning them into weapons exactly. He is the one who shows them the world beyond theirs and also shows them his own way of meddling with disaster whereever they go. I don't think he wants to change them in that way, not when he first takes them along to have a companion to dazzle. It's easy to forget what some of it does to them, too.

Still, one thing the final episode does well, in my opinion, is show the the difference between the Doctor who could blow up all Daleks, and the one who couldn't. The difference between the man who ended the Time War and the man who'd try to save even Davros.

I agree. I also think it a nice way to show how the Doctor is changing over time and how his companions and the adventures he has with them shape him in turn. It's not only him shaping his companions.

Who else is getting annoyed at the Doctor constantly disabling Jack's vortex manipulator? Especially since it's only the teleport this time, not even time travel. Considering how much alien and future-tech is cluttered all over the planet, considering UNIT reverse-engineered a teleport by themselves - WTF is going on in the Doctor's brain? Is there any explanation for this short of "the writers didn't want Jack to have a working vortex manipulator on Torchwood"?

Actually I never had any explanation for this in this episode beyond the "Torchwood"/barely disguised plot device explanation. It doesn't make sense here at all! It's really, really annoying!

Yeah, I agree, there are so many characters in there, and they don't really get the attention they deserve. While I love the way everyone ends up working together, and the idea of bringing the companions together like this, I'm a bit sad they didn't do more (and better) with the concept.

Especially with Rose. I mean, I'm not a huge Rose fan, but this just does her no justice at all. Donna's entire season was overshadowed by the promised return of Rose - and then she does return, and it's for this? So she can briefly be jealous of Martha, and briefly hug the Doctor, and then be shunted off right back to her parallel world with a Doctor substitute? They didn't even bother to show her interacting with Ten2 until Ten made the unilateral decision to take her back. And as you say, there's also the fact that she and Jack used to be quite close is completely ignored, and they don't get any interaction at all. Bah.

Maybe Jack has some left over trauma from being killed by Daleks before he wakes up immortal?

I'd be more willing to credit this if Sarah Jane weren't reacting exactly the same way. It's so very overdramatic from people who really should know better.

But then his companions make their own choices, too, so what becomes of them is not the Doctor fashioning them into weapons exactly.

Yes! The Doctor certainly has his part in shaping what his companions become, but Davros, here, just like the Doctor himself, simply ignores that they're people who make their own choices, not just the Doctor's puppets.

Actually I never had any explanation for this in this episode beyond the "Torchwood"/barely disguised plot device explanation. It doesn't make sense here at all! It's really, really annoying!

Yeah, I mean, if you have to keep doing it at least give us some sort of explanation for why! *headdesk*

I always like companions teaming up or getting to know each other, but the getting to know each other part is what is missing here.

Back when I watched it for the first time the whole buit up for the return of Rose was so exciting and then it didn't quite deliver. Something is missing. And I agree that there was no built up for her an TenII either. The first time they really talk is seconds before they are shipped up together. So I do agree that it does feel a little like he is her consolation price, even if I want to interpret it differently. It's just rushed.

I'd be more willing to credit this if Sarah Jane weren't reacting exactly the same way. It's so very overdramatic from people who really should know better.

Well I can see why Sarah Jane would be a little traumatized by Daleks, too. :P But it is overdramatic and both she and Jack should at least know they can try to fight them.

Yeah, I mean, if you have to keep doing it at least give us some sort of explanation for why! *headdesk* <7i>

I don't even see why the Doctor had to be used to diable it at all. It could just as well burned out and malfunctioned and he would have been all set to go back to Torchwood.

It's just rushed.

Yeah, and they could have done so much better. Still bitter about that.

I don't even see why the Doctor had to be used to diable it at all. It could just as well burned out and malfunctioned and he would have been all set to go back to Torchwood.

This! Hell, it was burnt out at the beginning of Utopia until the Doctor fixed it - and that was a much better state of affairs than the Doctor deliberately breaking it because reasons. *grumbles*

I'm not going to write too much, and I may ramble, but I agree about the 'we're dead' line because of course Jack won't be dead. Mind you if he'd said 'you're dead' that might have been a little to near the truth. TBH what worries me about Jack is the way that he leaves Gwen and Ianto to go off with the Doctor. Does he know that Tosh has worked out a way of protecting the Hub or is he just leaving them to chance?

As for Jack flirting or indeed Donna I think the Doctor just likes to be the centre of attention and that he gets jealous. He knows he can't really have a relationship with any of them - does he know about River already? How much does the Doctor know is always dfficult - wibbly wobbly etc.

This is again a difficult decision for the Doctor. He thinks that the Daleks are dead. We have to remember that the Doctor is guilty of more than one genecide although with the Daleks it never seems to stick for very long. We are shown his 'humanity' again with his need to save Davros as he tried with the Master. It's donna that kills the Daleks this time but she has part of him as well. He also manages to give Rose himself, sort of, and 10.5 can obviosuly give Rose the answers she needs when he can't.

My take on the vortex manipulator is that this would give Jack too much ability to move through time and cause mischief. He would be too much like the Doctor himself but I suppose Jack would be able, like others, to do that in the future anyway. However, judging by the fact that River is looking for a VM later and she's from the 51st century then - or again we assume she is - they don't seem to be that common and this one seems to have come off Jack as well. We don't know if the VMs are something only Time Agents have and how many of them there are. Jack has obviously travelled in time as an agent hence his mention of eating dinosaurs when the comet struck when he's talking to Ianto about Myfanwy in Fragments.

I like Stolen Earth because it brings so many together, not only Sarah Jane but also Harriet Jones. Jack has more of a role in the two part story here than he did in LotT. I agree with someone above that you'd have expected more interaction between Jack and Rose especially as he knows that she is repsonsible for his immortality but perhaps that's still such a two edged sword for him.

Overall I like this 2 parter better than SoD and LotT.

TBH what worries me about Jack is the way that he leaves Gwen and Ianto to go off with the Doctor.

The way the scene plays out, Gwen and Ianto deliberately keep the approaching Daleks from him, and he apparently thinks they'll be fine in the Hub. Why, I'm not sure - the Daleks surely didn't have a problem tracking the subwave to Harriet's place! But I think this is more of a plot hole than a problem with characterisation.

As for Jack flirting or indeed Donna I think the Doctor just likes to be the centre of attention and that he gets jealous.

Hee! I'm down with this explanation - Ten can be a bit narcisstic. :D

He knows he can't really have a relationship with any of them

Well, honestly, I don't see why. Can't have a conventional relationship, all right, but that's always seemed like an odd thing for the Doctor to worry about.

My take on the vortex manipulator is that this would give Jack too much ability to move through time and cause mischief. He would be too much like the Doctor himself

And he did that before he met the Doctor, and others are doing it still. I think it's really patronising and unpleasant of him to keep doing this to Jack.

What about trying to make a case that he doesn't approve of any of them? Given his initial mistrust of Jack, I'm sure he doesn't have a glowing opinion of the Time Agency in general. River steals a Vortex manipulator in "The Big Bang," but it's gone again by "Flesh and Stone" (from her POV), so there's no need for him to worry about that. Not to mention that, as I recall, once they meet up he's the one who ends up using it. And he does have some stern words for the Tesselecta (sp?) in "Let's Kill Hitler." He might feel that it's highly irresponsible for non-Time Lords to muck about with time, period, and while he can't go around stopping every one, it's sure as heck not going to happen on his watch. I don't know. I might be forgetting examples.

What about trying to make a case that he doesn't approve of any of them?

I suppose you could make a case for that, yes. But I'd really rather he showed Jack more respect than that. *sighs*

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Meta Month of March: Ep Discussion: The Stolen Earth/Journey's End

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