wintercompanion | Meta Month of March: Ep Discussion: Utopia

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Meta Month of March: Ep Discussion: Utopia

Doctor. - Captain.

And here we are, almost two years exactly after the events on the Game Station, finally getting some answers. Of course Jack has to work for his answers quite hard, and the Doctor is working equally hard to avoid him. So we start out with Jack chasing the Doctor, and the Doctor deliberately turning away as soon as he sees him. I still remember the shock of that scene, the first time I saw it.

The Doctor's at his most callous through the first part of this ep. You abandoned me. - Did I? Busy life, moving on. And there's an edge to the banter between them that we'd never quite seen before that point. The Doctor keeps censoring Jack (Oh, don't start.), and Jack keeps being unimpressed. The Doctor is almost hostile, and Jack doesn't hold back on the accusations. And the Doctor can't seem to make up his mind whether he wants to run away from Jack again and pretend they're nothing to each other now, or to fall back into old patterns. Jack first calls him on it (He's not my responsibility. - And I am? That makes a change.), but increasingly goes along with it.

And yet, even with all that, Jack still finds himself enjoying the adventure: Oh, I missed this. Jack's had his share of adventures on his own, in all those years in between, but he was stuck on the slow path. It's a different thing, being dropped into a strange adventure on a strange planet.

And for a moment, despite the danger, despite the tensions, everything seems good. The Doctor is happy to find humans surviving: End of the universe and here you are. Indomitable, that's the word! Indomitable! Jack casually flirts with some guy in the corridor, just like he did with Martha, and then Chantho. There's futuretech to geek out over, and even at the end of the universe there's still the dream of Utopia. And Jack and the Doctor fall back into an almost comfortable pattern (You're supposed to say sorry. - Oh, yes. Sorry.)

Of course things go wrong, and then Jack is dead again, and the Doctor's just watching, with that weird expression on his face. And we know we're approaching that crucial moment, the one we've been waiting for.

How long have you known? - Ever since I ran away from you.

It's no secret that this is the scene that made me into a Doctor/Jack shipper. I liked the pairing before that, but this is what turned it into an obsession. This is what I come back to again and again, all the layers of it, all the possible implications. The intimacy of that conversation, despite the barriers. This scene, and the answers we get, and the things that redefine both characters and the way we relate to them.

What do you think? Do you remember watching Utopia for the first time? Were you shocked to discover the Doctor knew exactly what had happened to Jack, and left him behind deliberately? Or was it what you expected?

It's not easy just looking at you, Jack, cause you're wrong. How much do you think Jack's fact-ness truly affects the Doctor, and how much is just avoidance? What does Jack being a fact really mean? (Admittedly I've written approximately ten million fics exploring that myself!) Is Jack right - is the Doctor really just prejudiced? Why do you think the Doctor really ran away? The Doctor, of course, leaves people and places behind all the time. But running from someone? That's something else.

Did Jack truly have a death wish, before this?

The dynamic between Ten and Jack is quite different than it was between Nine and Jack. How much of that is due to what happened on the Game Station, and how much of it is just the different personality of Ten?

And also, Jack recognises the Doctor immediately (The Police Box kinda gives it away.) - just how much does he know about Regeneration at this point? Did he know before the Doctor abandoned him? (Rose certainly didn't.) When/how did he find out?

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Beware I'm going to ramble a bit.
This is one of my top ten episodes of new Who. I really dislike the Doctor in this one because of the way he treats Jack from the 'busy' and 'moving on' comments all the way through even to the comment about Jack only finding happiness with himself. He hears all that Jack has been through, all his deaths and still there isn't enough sympathy for the man who has literally died for him and will go on dying for him and the rest of the human race over and over and over again, with every death causing him to be dragged back over broken glass.
It's quite a heavy episode for all its moments of fun - my favourite being when Jack strips off his shirt to the vest and the Doctor wonders why - Jack simply wants to look good. And then there's the running with Jack always that bit behind. I also like Martha's attitude about Rose, perfect and blonde. I wish they hadn't let her fancy the Doctor because otherwise she's quite fiesty and confident.
Lastly there's the Master. Derek Jacobi is fun but I was a bit disappointed with John Simm.
Overall there are so many great scenes and we witness the beginning of the relationship between 10 and Jack. I don't think that 10 ever really understands Jack except when he discovers that he may be the Face of Boe and then perhaps his appreciation of Jack is realised. Like so many others Jack is willing to do anything for the Doctor, including leaving his team in the lurch, hoping that the Doctor will cure him and eplain why he was left behind. For me the Doctor's explanation isn't good enough and it never will be. Already a hero, Jack became my hero and obsession after this.

It's really an amazing episode, on so many levels. One of my absolute favourites as well!

I don't dislike the Doctor here as much as you do, but the episode definitely shows off his unpleasant side very clearly. The redeeming part, for me, is that it's meant to be unpleasant, and that a character like the Doctor really needs aspects like that to not turn into a complete Mary Sue. He's never been the sparkly-white hero, and he's not meant to be.

And yes, he's absolutely appalling towards Jack, but I suppose how much you hold it against him depends on why you think he did it.

I don't think he lacks sympathy for Jack, actually, and the conversation through the door of the radiation room shows it clearly enough to me. He doesn't really want to feel it because he has no clue whatsoever how to deal with it, but I do think they come to an understanding there at that point.

I also like Martha's attitude about Rose, perfect and blonde. I wish they hadn't let her fancy the Doctor because otherwise she's quite fiesty and confident.

Utterly agreed there. I like the use of Rose in this ep, but in general I wish they'd have let her be after she left, and hadn't overshadowed Martha's tenure with all the Rose comparisons, and Donna's with Rose's continued appearances. *sighs*

I don't think that 10 ever really understands Jack except when he discovers that he may be the Face of Boe and then perhaps his appreciation of Jack is realised.

Really? I never quite know how much Ten understands Jack; I keep changing my mind over it. But I didn't think the Face of Boe thing mattered all that much, in the end ... (Maybe that's just because I didn't like it, though. Or rather, HATE IT would be the better term. *g*)

For me the Doctor's explanation isn't good enough and it never will be.

It was for me - I think it may have been the perfect explanation for me, because years after the fact I'm still obsessing over what it all means. *g* But I'm curious - what kind of explanation would you have liked?

I think when they are talking in the radiation chamber that Jack allows the Doctor to get aawy with his comments. Jack explains how many deaths he's had even in that short time. Later, when the Doctor realises that Jack could be his long lived friend who helps him, perhaps at last he sees Jack isn't just 'wrong'.

I wish the Doctor had at some point apologised for leaving Jack - he doesn't ever. And although I love the scene with Alonso, and I laughed out loud knowing RTD had probably done that on purpose, I do think once again that the Doctor wasn't thinking about Jack's love for him and that some time with him would have been good. Jack goes through hell on the Valiant and again there's no acknowledgement of his sacrifice, except that he says that Jack could stay. Jack has finally out grown his crush and found another love in Ianto and Torchwood.

I know it's going on but another example of the Doctor's callousness is when Jack pleads that he's set up Torchwood to honour him. Perhaps I am a little over the top in this but Jack is totally innocent in all this. He didn't make himself immortal and the Doctor owes him something but he just seems to take Jack's loyalty for granted.
I will admit that I am more of a 9 fan than 10.

I wish the Doctor had at some point apologised for leaving Jack

Yes, me too. But that's Ten for you, he's constitutionally incapable of that. *sighs* I like Ten rather a lot, but only if it's acknowledged that he's completely fucked up in a very different way than Nine was. It's all turned inward and, well, it's no surprise, really, that he nearly self-destructs in the end.

Note that the Doctor did apologize to Jack, the first time he saw him – while he was dead. "Hello again. Oh, I'm sorry." That just speaks volumes about Ten, though, that he didn't say, "Hello again, I'm sorry" when Jack came back to life, but only when he couldn't hear it.

If I can muddle my thoughts together here for a moment:

I have a love/hate relationship with this episode because it kind of reminded me why I didn't like Ten. I mean, from the very beginning, you have Jack running to catch up with him for really nothing more than an explanation, really, since the fact that he can't die was realized long ago and he was already of the assumption that Rose died. He didn't need the Doctor to confirm or deny any of those things. What Jack wanted, in my reasoning at least, was an explanation for why, after fighting the good fight and dying for him, he was left behind like yesterday's news. And Ten's reaction, after seeing that Jack was trying to catch him to question just that, was to once again try to flee the scene and avoid any sort of conversation.

Which of course leads them to the end of everything where the Doctor continues to show what a git he can be by not even batting so much as an eye when he sees Jack there dead. And yes, he knows Jack can't die, but that general look of disapproval as he stands over Jack after a very pithy sorry is just bothersome. In that moment right there, it's clear that the Doctor is not happy that Jack came along for the ride .

Because I think the factness has to be a bother for the Doctor. Not a real one that makes his timelord tummy all twisted up in knots, but a conditioned bother since it's a general timelord rule that one is never meant to mess with a fixed point in time. Fixed points are meant to happen and can never change so it's best to overlook them for always. Not much of a problem when dealing with days in a year, but when dealing with a person, it can get a bit sketch. Jack was a companion and someone the Doctor cared about and now he's something the Doctor is all but conditioned to avoid, which he does well. But then I also feel that a good chunk of it is avoidance as well since, as everyone says, to some extent the Doctor just moves on from a companion and when Jack died, that was the move on point. And that sort of mentality of never looking back for any reason along with the general "Don't Touch" sign hanging over all fixed points makes the Doctor's behavior a bit more acceptable.

Though, I still don't stand by it in the slightest since their relationship is so different, entirely due in part to the Doctor. After all, Jack may be pissed about being left on an empty game station, but it doesn't take him long to fall back into his old habits with the Doctor. Keeping him from falling into the rocket silo thing, helping him take off his coat when Ten started getting all helpful with Yana. Jack may be pissed, but he's not going to let it affect how he treats the Doctor. Unlike Ten, who clearly doesn't want to be bothered by the man in the slightest. Part of which may be attributed to the 'factness' of Jack, but then there's the fact that he spent a good chunk of the season ignoring his past. Doesn't talk about Rose much, didn't want to tell Martha about his home. He's running from his own life in a way and Jack Harkness ruins that.

And finally, because I can't shut up, I always figured Jack wanted to die a bit before meeting the Doctor. His whole purpose, from how I understood it, was to find the Doctor and get fixed so that he could finally die. But then there was the thing where he actually came close and I feel that sort of changed everything for him. Like a suicidal idea, it seems perfect until you take that first step off the building. Then you can't help but think maybe your life was manageable after all.

Anyways, shutting up now.

What Jack wanted, in my reasoning at least, was an explanation for why, after fighting the good fight and dying for him, he was left behind like yesterday's news. And Ten's reaction, after seeing that Jack was trying to catch him to question just that, was to once again try to flee the scene and avoid any sort of conversation.

Yes, absolutely. Jack wanted an explanation of what happened to him. And the Doctor couldn't even bring himself to give him that much. Sometimes he's really not a very good man at all, and anyone less forgiving than Jack would have strangled him for it. Through all his remaining regenerations.

Which of course leads them to the end of everything where the Doctor continues to show what a git he can be by not even batting so much as an eye when he sees Jack there dead.

I don't know; I don't think he comes across as indifferent at that point. The expression on his face; that half-turned-away "sorry ... He does his best to come across as callous as possible to Jack (and that's really horrible of him), but he's very clearly affected - he wouldn't lash out that much if he really just didn't care. It's awful and fucked up, and very hard to tell what the hell is there under the surface, but there's clearly something simmering. I've spent the last five years repeatedly trying to tease out that "something", and it keeps fascinating me.

a conditioned bother since it's a general timelord rule that one is never meant to mess with a fixed point in time

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense to me.

but then there's the fact that he spent a good chunk of the season ignoring his past. Doesn't talk about Rose much, didn't want to tell Martha about his home. He's running from his own life in a way and Jack Harkness ruins that.

This is an excellent point. It's a very Ten thing, this kind of avoidance - Ten is completely awful at facing his past, or consequences of any kind, and he keeps veering wildly between silly giggles and ONCOMING STORM. I don't think this excuses his behaviour towards Jack (and let's not forget, he was still Nine when he ran), but I think it does explain it at least a bit, if that makes sense.

I do remember watching Utopia for the first time and being all excited about every minute of it. It’s probably my favourite Jack/Doctor episode. It does take their relationship on to an entirely new level of complexity and it’s exactly that complexity that hits all my kinks. It starts the minute the Doctor steps out of the Tardis and utters his “Hello again. Oh. I’m sorry” line to Jack’s dead body and gets even more complicated when the Doctor comes across as hostile and a little cruel, not repeating his apology to living Jack, but instead pushing him away. That alone pushes all of my buttons. It also reveals how the Doctor has problems with dealing with situations that he can’t really control. For me it added a new depth to his character.

Utopia changes their relationship from the flirty/fun/one-sidedness of season one to something that is entirely different and all the more complicated because of it.

I always like to be reminded that the Doctor is more alien than his human appearance and preoccupation with earth leads us to believe sometimes. His reaction to what Jack has become leaves a lot up for interpretation, of course. But I like to think that his cruelty is his own strange way to deal with his own guilty conscience, and with what I assume is prejudice influenced by what Gallifreyan culture must have thought about facts and whatever it is when his senses pick up when Jack is around. (One of my favourite line from Rose is Nine telling her how he senses the planet’s movement, how to him they are “falling through space”. So he experiences the world differently and Jack is something that is so much out of the ordinary, that it at least seems impossible. That must be scary at least.)

Also the Doctor’s life is constantly in flux in some way. He’s never standing still, regenerating, changing companions - the only constant is the Tardis. And now Jack is a fact. How must that feel for the Doctor? What does it mean for the Doctor, really?

It’s my personal canon that Jack knew about Regeneration for a long time by then. He’s been with Torchwood for so long and Torchwood must have been aware of some of what the Doctor had been up to with Unit. And he has the hand... So I must assume he is at least aware of some of the details of what happened then.

The episode also has this short exchange between Martha and the Doctor about the Face of Boe in front of Jack and he says nothing, which I personally take as a sign for his words in the season finale to be a joke and nothing more- Of course, I don’t like the theory that he is the Face of Boe at all and am interpreting things accordingly. ;P

In a way the “shared history/complicated relationship” theme is mirrored in the revelation that the Professor is in fact the Master. Kind of interesting how one of the first things the Doctor says to Simm!Master is “I’m sorry”, too. It’s like an echo of his first line to Jack in this episode.

It’s probably my favourite Jack/Doctor episode.

Yes! Mine as well. So, so many layers, I will never get tired of them.

It starts the minute the Doctor steps out of the Tardis and utters his “Hello again. Oh. I’m sorry” line to Jack’s dead body and gets even more complicated when the Doctor comes across as hostile and a little cruel, not repeating his apology to living Jack, but instead pushing him away.

Yes! And, you know, I'm never quite sure just how sorry he really is ("I'm so sorry" is a phrase Ten utters way too often), but that complicated expression on his face really gets to me. And then he turns deliberately vicious, trying to push Jack away as hard as he can, only to be completely derailed when Jack brings up Rose and he has to tell him she's alive. And that hug ...

I really love the complications this ep adds to their relationship. And I do love that Jack's not just immortal, but something that can actually inspire the Doctor to run away. The Doctor runs away often enough, but he's generally running away from himself more than anything - this is something different.

I always like to be reminded that the Doctor is more alien than his human appearance and preoccupation with earth leads us to believe sometimes.

Yes! That's something else that really gets to me, the bit about Time Lord instincts and fixed points.

But I like to think that his cruelty is his own strange way to deal with his own guilty conscience

Yes, that's how I see it too! Makes it not a bit better, of course, but I like being able to get into the Doctor's head and trying to understand what's going on in there at moments like that. And I admit I like my Doctor like that, with that unpleasant edge. I think he'd be quite unbearable without it, in fact!

And now Jack is a fact. How must that feel for the Doctor? What does it mean for the Doctor, really?

I've spent the last five years coming back to that question again and again, and I keep coming up with new ideas. That concept was really inspired.

It’s my personal canon that Jack knew about Regeneration for a long time by then.

Yes, agreed. It's my personal canon that he's seen quite a few incarnations of the Doctor in his time, even if he's avoided them.

The episode also has this short exchange between Martha and the Doctor about the Face of Boe in front of Jack and he says nothing, which I personally take as a sign for his words in the season finale to be a joke and nothing more

You'll get no argument from me! Jack is no head in a jar. Jack will never be a head in a jar. I won't have it. NEVER. *g*

Kind of interesting how one of the first things the Doctor says to Simm!Master is “I’m sorry”, too. It’s like an echo of his first line to Jack in this episode.

Oooh, that's a fascinating point! I'll have to ponder that a bit ...

Yes! And, you know, I'm never quite sure just how sorry he really is ("I'm so sorry" is a phrase Ten utters way too often), but that complicated expression on his face really gets to me. And then he turns deliberately vicious, trying to push Jack away as hard as he can, only to be completely derailed when Jack brings up Rose and he has to tell him she's alive. And that hug ...

I agree. The "I'm so sorry" line gets used to the point where it doesn't mean anything anymore. I had a sneaking suspicion that it was meant to show him as this martyred savior which RTD actually overdid in his writing by the end. But this is one of the handful of times where I thought it worked, especially because Jack is dead at the time and the Doctor just has this look on his face when he says it. It gets to me every time without fail.

I've spent the last five years coming back to that question again and again, and I keep coming up with new ideas.

Me, too. It's what drove me to write fanfic for the two of them in the first place.

Why do you think the Doctor really ran away?

You know, some of my favorite fics about Ten and Jack are about that. A short list:

Nonzero Sum Equation (http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=21750) by DameRuth

Archimedean Point (http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=18327) by trobadora

Running Away (http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=13219) by wendymr

Wrong (http://www.whofic.com/viewstory.php?sid=13228&warning=Adult) by wendymr

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Meta Month of March: Ep Discussion: Utopia

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